As a young kid, I was more of an outdoor person, and I relished all playground moments. We have a home in Lonavala and every time we went there, my dad would always encourage me to step out of the gate and roam around… one day up the hills, another day into the village interiors, a third day in the wilderness. I guess he wanted me to become independent and think for myself right from a young age. I am glad his word was my command. It has made all the difference.
While at home, I watched loads of TV. Having been blessed with a reasonably good memory, I would easily remember several character names, dialogues and lyrics from popular films and soaps. My wife often tells me she hasn’t seen or even heard many of the songs that I hum and movies that I mention. Ironically enough, I am now reversing all the TV indulgence. I hardly spend time before it, nor am I hooked on to any OTT shows. Watching sports is also a rarity now. Even the fast-paced T20 cricket, I watch selectively, a few matches, that too for a few overs. The last couple of cricket matches that I watched end to end were World Cup India-Pak encounters. Coming back to those days, I loved to dance on peppy songs. Not so much now!
How was family time?
Although we were well-off and were moving up the economic value chain by the day, our values were always middle class, very rooted! We believed in having a good time but no extravagance just for the heck of it. Never! This comes from the fact that my father was a self-made man.
Dad had twin degrees of BSC and LLB. He spoke flowing English, courtesy the old English convents in Kolkata. Dad had humble beginnings and used to rent books and read early morning outside his large joint family home under a streetlight. He was also very good at sports and at some point, wanted to pursue cricket. He’s even bowled in the nets to a few legends of the game, but later had to shelve the cricketing dream as he had the responsibility of a large joint family, being the eldest son. Cricket wasn’t as high paying then as it is today.
He did his law from Govt Law college in Mumbai. He also practiced law, but later couldn’t spend the few critical years under a senior lawyer to develop his career. He took up a job in Chemical Alkalies and quickly rose the ranks. To manage the income shortfall, he would do odd jobs and side businesses. Dad used to visit the State Trading Corporation for work, a place where Late Shri Dhirubhai Ambani was a frequent visitor. They bumped into each other quite often and came to know each other well in a short span of time. Later, at a time when my dad was doing quite well for himself, Shri Dhirubhai roped him in Reliance Industries, where my dad worked for the rest of his life, till the day he passed away. Shri Dhirubhai was very appreciative of my dad’s PR skills, people connect, his impeccable English and thorough knowledge of Law. My dad was possibly the only double graduate Ambani at the time.
My father used to enjoy his weekly drink sessions. We followed a routine. I would sit in front of him for a good two to three hours, and he would give a ring side view of the corporate world that he was part of - office politics, government matters, challenges of license raj, people issues, personal finance and stock market concepts, law matters (dad had formally studied law). He would first explain how a fool-proof solution was found to a sticky problem at work and ask me whether I would have done something different had I been in his position. We used to call these sessions ‘episodes’ and I would keenly wait for Wednesdays and Saturdays to soak in his wit and wisdom. I think those episodes helped shape my character and taught me how to deal with people, manage teams, manage conflict, and sharpen my negotiation skills. This is why I guess I was fortunate to take up a managerial role early on in my career as I could deploy all the learnings in the living waters of employment.
Any role models who have shaped your thought and action?
Beyond the slightest doubt, Shri Dhirubhai was a towering role model, courtesy the ‘episodes’ in which my dad spoke at length about the genius. I even had the good fortune of meeting the great man in person. Anyone who has met him knows, there is a certain aura around the legend. I was fairly young at the time and all I did was touch his feet and say, ‘Jai Shri Krishna’. He asked what I was studying, and what I planned to do later in life. I fondly remember he told me to think big and wished me good luck!
My father has of course been a big influence in my life. Besides, there are many things you learn from different people and situations in life. A few big influences in recent years have been an eclectic mix. I found the discourses of Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev very profound, especially his thoughts that there is nothing like work-life balance. You need to work on your life and put life into your work. Simon Sinek’s videos on leadership have resonated with me, so have Gary Vaynerchuk’s thoughts on clarity of thought and execution, and Jordon Peterson’s notes on clear perspectives and thoughtful and articulate expression.
M S Dhoni has been a very strong influence. Usually, you hear great stories about many corporate leaders, but you don’t get to see them in action; they stay tucked in the four walls of their office cabins. MSD is one master whose work style is for all to see, live on the field. There are several things worth imbibing from the legend. One massive learning from the great man, that has topped all others, has come from his quote: ‘We always have more time than we think’. I have heard him say it, but somehow, I couldn’t find it on the internet… Or maybe it’s an innate learning from seeing him on the cricket field, executing his plan with utmost calm, sans pressure… taking the game deep and finishing it, usually in the last over, making our hearts skip a beat.
It doesn’t mean that we sit on things and act only in the end. It simply means not to get rushed into or overwhelmed by the situation. Work out the task at hand, manage timelines, and execute well. In the last several years, this enlightenment of knowing that I have more time than I may think, has helped me relax, stay organized, follow my process, and execute my plan. I wish I had picked these up much early on in life. But better late than never. Like MSD says, the process is more important than the results. And if you take care of the process, you will get the results!
Can you recall your days of higher education? Any fond memories of the time - say teachers, colleagues, and the like?
We had a professor we used to fondly call Sango. Besides the finance that he taught, his style of talking, his confidence, his insistence on focusing on the job at hand which was studies/academics at the time rather than internship or MBA cricket leagues or guest seminars inspired many among us. The focus has paid off in life, rather than spreading yourself too thin in the two years of MBA.
Dr G. was another professor who was a master in operations and believed in the Japanese style of production techniques and taught us those. His ways of doing the little things right, identifying the bottlenecks, striving for continuous improvement (Kaizen) and even simple things like art of listening, not giving vague answers, being disciplined in life were the qualities we looked up to. He even suggested a book ‘The Goal’ which many of us read and enjoyed. I still have a copy at home. Unfortunately, Dr G passed away a couple of years back.
Then there was one big management lesson that I picked up from another professor that opened many doors for me. He said that we learn the domains of IT, Finance, Operations, Marketing etc. And these are important. But one age-old problem lies at the core which needs to be resolved in every company, teams working in silos and trapped in their egos. He said, “Marketing does not talk to HR, and HR does not talk to Operations, and Operations does not talk to IT, and IT does not talk to Marketing and Marketing does not talk to Finance and Finance generally does not talk to anyone :)” This is the problem that all business administrators must solve across organizations to succeed.
A message from my father during my MBA days was not to overdo the ‘structured thinking’ mode. Learn the method and concepts for sure, but also rely on instincts, think ahead, and look out of the box for solutions. A few years later, I came across this book on Randomness in thinking that had a similar and fantastic message. It said that if you think in a structured way then you will stumble across the same solutions. But if you think in an unstructured way (randomness in thought), then you may find brilliant and unique solutions. To cite an example, make a list of common nouns and randomly pick one, say “Camera”. Now think of what all can be done with the help of a camera. You will find unique solutions… video record your rationale as an analyst and send it to clients. You wouldn’t think of this otherwise!
Were finance and investments always your areas of affinity?
I need to give some preface to answer this question. Barring a few subjects like History, I lacked interest in school studies (my mother says I am making up for it because I am always reading now). I would study at the eleventh hour and manage a first-class and would be happy with it. But I had this weird habit of suddenly developing interest in subjects after the academic year was over. So, in 8th Std, I would be reading a 7th Std book. This helped strengthen my concepts even though it wouldn’t reflect on the marksheet.
During my MBA, my major was finance, but I did well in marketing and HR subjects. I was good at debates and verbal presentations in assignments. In fact, I strengthened my finance concepts only on the job, as I applied them as an analyst. This is what truly gave me conceptual clarity.
The ‘episodes’ with my father always got me lured towards the stock market. In my teens, I always dreamt of amassing huge wealth. Wanting to make money may sound lame today because we hear of people saying they always wanted to solve some huge problem plaguing the society. Honestly, it was all about the money for me then. It still is about the money in many ways but today, money is to fetch me freedom to do what I want. I discovered a decade ago that I love travelling and living like a local in different cities, visiting places of interest and shopping streets, get a feel of the culture, spending time with family, sitting at the window watching the sunrise and sunset, and the like. This freedom to do these things only comes with financial freedom. Any help to society or serving any larger cause finally demands financial commitment.
When I took up finance specialization in MBA, it was with the idea of getting into the stock market. It worked out well for me and didn’t end up like I landed up with my dream and hated it. I love the stock market and world of investments. We aspire for many things as kids, some kids want to be a pilot, others want to be a fine mechanic, but dreams change overtime. In many cases, you don’t get what you want. Then there are people who get what they want but realize midway it is not their calling. So, I am glad it worked out for me.
I don’t think I am in love with finance as such. Finance is only one of the tools that are needed to evaluate a company and its value. The process of gauging the mindset, capability, and intention of promoters, evaluating the depth of their teams/products, identifying the potential and sustainability of their business, competitive scenario, all of that is very important. Then, if you have picked up a stake in the company, then watching it grow, and your call going right or wrong, is a fascinating journey. I don’t think just being in corporate finance or project finance would have made me as happy.
When the time came to pick a job from campus, I skipped all the big companies that my friends were lining up for and chose to apply to three lesser-known companies. At the time, they were among the lowest paying on campus. For me, the charm was that they were offering a capital market experience. I cleared all three interviews and picked the one which was directly linked to the stock market. Here too, my dad’s words rang true in my ears: ‘Better to be a Big fish in a small pond, rather than a small fish in the big sea.’ It worked for me, and my work was appreciated and noticed very early in my career.
The other fascination from the ‘episodes’ was that for corporate life… the nitty gritty, people management, execution of an idea, branding and strategy (I always liked branding and strategy than Finance during my MBA days). This is largely the reason why I haven’t been able to call it quits to corporate life even today, when ideally, I should focus full time on my investments. High-pressure situations in corporate life have been quite the lure, else it will be much easier to start a family office and focus only on the investing journey.
Please talk about the family influences in your life.
My dad told me never to fight nature. He often said there’s no pride in it because you are bound to end up on the losing side. One message of his has helped me in many ways – whether in being disciplined in sleep and food routines, managing my diet, being particular about the need to exercise, to get a good night’s sleep. He taught me to be flexible, not rigid, be like flowing water and find your way through rocks and stones. He taught me the importance of money and wealth in our lives. Money management is not taught in schools which is why parents must teach their kids about this crucial aspect. My dad brought this realization in me about not ignoring money matters, staying focused on building, growing, and preserving wealth.
He told me all kinds of people make up this world and you should learn to deal with all of them, whether good, bad, ugly, eccentric, egoistical, brilliant, or dim-witted. He shared with me what Shri Dhirubhai had told him – Don’t just pay people, win them over! Paying people doesn’t build a lasting relationship, it is purely commercial and devoid of the emotions that create bonding. Someone pays them more and they will desert you midway. Winning over people demands that you extend love, affection, empathy, and care to the people who work with you, remunerating them for their services is only one aspect of the relationship.
Shri Dhirubhai also told him about the multiple roles we play in our lives and hence we need to be a successful juggler of the metaphorical balls – most of them are weather-proof rubber balls, but some are crystal balls made of delicate material. You are bound to drop a few balls at some point of time, so make sure the ones that get dropped are rubber balls which can bounce back into your hand, not the glass ones which will break into pieces beyond repair.
My dad was extremely organized. He meticulously maintained a diary noting down details like birthdays and anniversary days of family, friends, and acquaintances. I do the same, albeit on the electronic diary of my laptop – and that helps me wish people on their special days. In these times, when physical interactions are minimal, there are at least two touch points for me to connect with my circle of acquaintance and influence – their birthdays and anniversary days. One key thing he told me was that it is good to have a good memory but don’t always rely on it. Note things down and you will never regret the effort.
The concept of ‘doing things right the first time’ I internalized thanks to my father. He hated reminding people to get things done, and he often admonished me that doing things after being reminded is doing things right the second time, which is unacceptable. His wise words help me immensely to this day at work as I am particular about getting it 'first time right' – whether sending proactive emails complete with attachments or doing work in the exact order of priority.
My mother has been a calming influence in my life, amid all the hustle bustle and running around, following in the footsteps of my father, getting organized and doing things for the first time right. She is the one who taught me how to be genuinely nice to the people around you. While my father used to say money should multiply and lifestyle should add, my mother taught me to be content in life with what I have, and not burn on the inside constantly benchmarking myself with someone else. Her words have made a world of difference to help me define and refine my psyche and perspectives on life and people.
I have two elder sisters. I owe my English to them besides my father, because all of them went to convents and were avid readers. We still have a huge library of sorts in our house with shelves full of books of different genres. Often, I used to end up watching a lot of the English soap operas which my sisters were hooked on to. That also helped me get better at communication.
Last but not the least, my wife has played a pivotal role in recent years in shaping my personality and helping me eat right and adopt organic and healthier choices. I’ve found a best friend in her. We talk for hours with some rounds of plain hot ginger water (disguised as tea) and I have benefited immensely from these discussions. She guides me when I narrate my own ‘episodes’ to her now. She gave up her thriving career to take care of my two most precious assets – our kids. I will forever be grateful to her for that.
How do you look at the evolution of the financial investment space over the years? What has changed for the better? What have been the undesirable aspects of the change?
On the bright side, financial assets are growing. This helps the economy grow faster and more sustainably, employing capital for productive use. Digitalization has resulted in a democratization of investments among the community at large. A lot more actionable knowledge and information is out there for public consumption through print, electronic and social media, as also broker and advisor networks. People are today a lot more informed about the choices available and governance issues facing corporates. Regulation has been tightened up for the better in India. Regulators have been doing a wonderful job.
On the flip side, access to debt is getting too easy for comfort and way too convenient, hence we may head the US way in the years to come where people largely live off credit. This situation is still far away, but westernization is surely happening at a rapid pace. There are too many exotic products in the market which can cause a negative ripple effect on economies, more so in case of international markets. Trends like Crypto investing, which is mostly not understood, shadow lending overseas, and bizarre products linked to loans are all results of insatiable greed.
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How do you look back on your career trajectory?
The advantage of trying to be a big fish in a small pond was that I kept growing with the pond and ultimately the pond turns into a giant reservoir, somewhat equivalent to a sea. If you have worked right and have been noticed, then you climb the ladder much faster. Everyone does a job but in a big sea, mostly mistakes get noticed. On-track work is taken for granted. So you have to try that much harder to be recognised by the higher ups. And there’s a lot of competition.
In a small pond, you get noticed faster. Your hard work gets rewarded. I had this advantage. I had the good fortune of getting involved in multiple areas of business. I started as an analyst, then helped build the institutional equities business. Later, I moved into other key aspects of the business - the company’s IPO, setting up their PCG desk, creating an advisory culture, set up training, CSR, and PR, building the digital business, working on marketing campaigns, putting together a book and getting it published end-to-end, being part of broking strategy, steering the investment committee for the Private Wealth business, working on banking license, helping raise money through NCDs for the NBFC business, and the like.
All this has given me a diversified and vivid experience and broadened my horizon in different ways. Take just one instance: At a time when I was very young and naive, and had never appeared on TV before, I was asked to join a TV show through an abrupt phone call from my MD; he had committed to a CNBC show but could not make it, and he asked me to do the needful. This was a Live morning show with a full house of people. My MD had the confidence that I could do it because in a small pond, he had seen my work from close quarters. You don’t get such a maiden opportunity in big seas. And this is just a small example from my formative career. There have been many bigger ones along the way.
I’ve had a great career, requiring me to multi-task, where I have been involved in so many aspects of business. I would say it’s the next best thing to running your own business.
Looking back at my career trajectory, I have no reason to complain. I have had a lovely time and a lovely team; a lot of my team members are with me even today. Here’s another thing I identify with MSD. CSK retains its teams across seasons. Minimal changes. I believe in that too! It's not always about having the best batsman, or the fastest bowler. It's about having good people who want to excel and work as a cohesive unit. I’ve been fortunate to maintain this unit.
Another thrill, or chill, was when I decided to move on from an organization where I had spent almost 15 years. When I told my team, each and every one conveyed the desire to move along with me. This was a transition I was again fortunate enough with the robust support of my core team players.
In the current role, I am back to building an institutional franchise, in a much bigger way, something that I started out to do in my previous firm, before I moved on to other areas of business. There are times when there is a feeling, 'Why not start on my own.' Many have told me that they would join me and given the vivid experience I have had, it should work out fine too. But I think the investor in me takes over and I feel my own interests would be heavily compromised; I wouldn't be able to give enough time for my personal investing, which is my first love. Evaluating, and investing in, other businesses and betting on other promoters keeps me going and my bets diversified.
Then there have been calls to start my own PMS. Right now, I am enjoying my current role. I also wish to keep traveling the world as an occasional wanderer and also work on my spiritual process, so let’s see how it goes!
Has retail investing matured over time? Is the leap of faith in the right direction?
It has got better for sure. But financial literacy still has a long way to go. There is this strong lure among the masses for easy returns, the irresistible temptation to leverage, and the insatiable greed to buy penny stocks. I was recently told by one Retail broking leader that clients have been pestering them for stocks priced below Rs50! That kind of explains the scenario.
How do you look at valuation in the specific context of stocks?
Whenever I am researching a stock or sector, valuation is always secondary. My interest in a particular stock or sector is triggered by the news or update about some opportunity that has presented itself which then has me probe deep into the industries and companies likely to benefit from it. Or it could be a screener that I am running which shows u names that are doing well. Or I could go top-down looking at macro details of manufacturing, services and then going micro at the scrip level. Once I identify sectors and segments with potential, where I sense that the potential is significant, penetration levels are low, growth is happening at a reasonable pace, or is likely to pick up pace, or there is a trigger for digital adoption to accelerate in the foreseeable future, that is my starting point to delve deep.
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When I actually get down to assessing companies, my first focal point is the track record and reputation of the promoter, and the management, which drives everything else for me. It could be a great sector, it could be a company generating phenomenal returns and posting great quarterly numbers, but if I don’t like the management or the promoter, that is where it ends. For me, management is everything, the promoter needs to be ethical and passionate about the company’s mission, vision and values, not merely competent. If the promoter is not ethical, the longevity of the enterprise is in serious question. I also scan through the news on the company – positive, negative, their history, their board composition, core team profiles and credentials, and capital allocations. When I meet the promoter, I indulge in a bit of face reading and observe the body language – how they talk, what they talk about, picking up subtle hints of the persona, character, and conviction.
Once this homework is done, I turn to the growth aspect and the value prop. Are they innovating; if not big, at least in baby steps; what are the key risks to their growth model – regulatory, industry, or company specific; how challenging is the competitive landscape, and the like.
The last point, after all the above is done and dusted, concerns the valuations. Obviously, we need to buy stocks at a reasonable price. It may be a great company but if you are buying it at an exorbitant price, then you could be sitting with that stock for a decade or more – the company will be great, but you won’t be greater!
What is your take on the future of the financial investment landscape... especially in this disruptive era of AI, ML and the metaverse?
Financialization of savings is happening in a big way – so we will see more and more money incrementally moving from physical assets to financial assets. In the latter space, whether it be equities or bonds or all else, AI will have a big role to play, where you can quickly pull-out history of events, media updates, corporate and industry happenings, key ratios, performance indicators, quantitative scores, ESG metrics and everything else about a company or industry using tools like ChatGPT. You can dictate your areas of interest and degree of complexity sought and set boundaries for sourcing and analysis of the desired information. The tools can help you in line with your exact need – whether a pure learning endeavour or for preparing a report or presentation. Research and writing will become a breeze for sure. You can take the help of algorithms to make correlations on key data, generate charts and screeners. As a result, DIY mode will be a force to reckon with in the immediate future. This easy to source information also means a lot of arbitrage opportunities will keep dwindling. A lot of exotic derivative products and bundling of offerings will emerge on the scene, and the East will emulate the West with a time lag, like it always does. There will always be a target audience for these products and their use will lead to many systemic risks lurking in their perceived benefit.
However, what can never be replaced is the essence and significance of qualitative assessment of promoters’ commitment, team ethos, innovation cultures at the workplace, study of human psychology, human imagining, and envisioning abilities on the spur. These will remain timeless differentiators AI and ML can’t ever take away.
On the broking side, transaction business is dying a slow death; it is gradually becoming a commodity which you cannot charge for. In the coming time, people will be willing to pay only for research and advisory or direct portfolio management. Asset base in passive funds in ETFs will grow phenomenally as it has in the West.
As an aside, I see every shark on the Indian Shark Tank, shouting 'Online' from the rooftops! As if the traditional brick & mortar model is history. Far from the truth for sure! Yes, some businesses are more online, but there are others more offline or even completely offline and super successful at that. Never mind the fad, the timeless never fades away, life and business always come full circle. While established businesses are on a branch opening spree, many Startups with ‘online only’ models, are also going offline in a big way. My humble suggestion to the sharks out there: Don't write physical off. I know Metaverse is coming in a big way, but touch and feel will never fade away. It is timeless and priceless too!
You have a spiritual bent of mind even though you are quite social. How do you make the twain meet?
I am not against people interactions, and I cherish the significance of focused conversations. True knowledge, however, comes from withdrawing into the deepest recesses of our minds, and spending time with oneself in freewheeling contemplation. The popular perception is that more people interactions make you more knowledgeable. In reality, more often than not, all one gathers from meeting different people and indulging in diverse conversations is heaps of information. Not that there isn’t some value to it. But unassuming molehills of information may become overwhelming mountains of knowledge and they rarely help cultivate insight. In fact, most of borrowed wisdom is plain noise, if one cares to probe deeper into the so-called treasure trove.
For developing the temperament for practicing meditation, rooted in self-enquiry, we need not look far and beyond. Whether Lord Mahavira of the Tirthankara tradition, Gautam Buddha, founder of Buddhism, or Ramana Maharshi of Neo-Advaitic school of thought, all have shown the way to enlightenment through silent contemplation in solitude (Ekaant). This silence has a voice of its own which helps you eliminate the noise around and find your poise within. Whether in the stock market or life, cut out the noise through self-enquiry. You will experience way more fruitful and sustainable outcomes.